Legislature(1993 - 1994)
03/27/1993 09:00 AM House FSH
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES
March 27, 1993
9:00 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Carl E. Moses, Chairman
Representative Harley Olberg, Vice-Chairman
Representative Irene Nicholia
Representative Cliff Davidson
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Gail Phillips
OTHERS LEGISLATORS PRESENT
Representative Jeannette James
Representative Bill Williams
Senator Fred Zharoff
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
Overview on Federal Fisheries Issues: State, Magnuson
Fishery Conservation & Management Act, Marine Mammal
Protection Act, Endangered Species Act, Pacific Salmon
Treaty, and Glacier Bay Fishing
WITNESS REGISTER
Carl Rosier, Commissioner
Alaska Department of Fish & Game
1255 W. 8th Street
Juneau, AK 99801
Phone: 465-4100
Position Statement: Advised that the ADF&G may need
additional funds for lobbying in
Washington D.C. on federal acts
Ron Somerville, Special Assistant to the Commissioner
Alaska Department of Fish and Game
P.O. Box 25526
Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526
Phone: 465-4100
Position Statement: Advised members bio-diversity is an
upcoming issue in D.C.
Rod Moore, Legislative Aide for
Congressman Don E. Young
House of Representatives
2331 Rayburn House Office Bldg.
Washington D.C. 20515-0201
Phone: (202) 225-5765
Position Statement: Spoke about Congressman Young's proposed
bill to allow commercial fishing in
Glacier Bay
David Benton, Director
External and International Fisheries Affairs
Alaska Department of Fish & Game
1255 W. 8th Street
Juneau, AK 99801
Phone: 465-4100
Position Statement: Spoke briefly about fisheries management
Richard "Rick" Lauber, Chairman
North Pacific Fisheries Management Council
Lobbyist, Pacific Seafood Processors Association
321 Highland
Juneau, AK 99801
Phone: 586-6366
Position Statement: Advised that Norway and other countries
are re-flagging Alaskan fishing vessels
and re-using bottoms in order to
commercially fish in Alaskan waters
Bob Loescher, Executive Vice-President
Sealaska Corporation
One Sealaska Plaza
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Phone: 586-1512
Position Statement: Advised of his work to correct Glacier
Bay fishing problems caused by
restrictive laws of the National Park
Service
Dale Kelley, Executive Director
Alaska Trollers Association
Coordinator, Allied Fishermen of Southeast Alaska
Member, United Fishermen of Alaska
130 Seward Street, Suite 505
Juneau, AK 99801
Phone: 586-9400
Position Statement: Believed the local crab industry needs
to be reviewed and more money is needed
for surveys and studies in the industry
John Sisk, Executive Director
Southeast Alaska Conservation Council
419 Sixth Street, Suite 328
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Phone: 586-6942
Position Statement: Stated Glacier Bay waters are designated
as a National Park yet are also crucial
to commercial and subsistence fishermen
Suzzanne Ludicello, Representative
Center for Marine Conservation
No Address Available
Position Statement: Discussed issue of co-management of
resources between tribes and the federal
government
Larry Merculieff, Vice-Chair
Indigenous Peoples Council on Marine Mammals
P.O. Box 901
St. Paul Island, Alaska 99669
Phone: 546-2331
Position Statement: Outlined issues that were of concern to
his council regarding the Marine Mammals
Protection Act and unanimously opposed
the position paper by the U.S. Fish &
Wildlife Department
Charlie Johnson, Acting Executive Director
Eskimo Walrus Commission
General Delivery
Nome, Alaska 99762
Phone: 443-5592
Position Statement: Supported the position of the Indigenous
Peoples Council and opposed the position
paper by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife
Department
Beth Stewart, Director
Natural Resources Department
Aleutians East Borough
P.O. Box 33796
Juneau, Alaska 99803
Phone: 789-9641
Position Statement: Advised of population problems with
stellar sea lions and other endangered
species in Alaska
Eric Jorgenson, Managing Attorney
Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund
325 4th Avenue
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Phone: 586-2751
Position Statement: Advised of process of listing animals on
the endangered species list
Kate Troll, Executive Director
Southeast Alaska Seiners Association
9226 Long Run Drive
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Phone: 789-5117
Position Statement: Believed "species" needs to be defined,
as now it is being applied to isolated
populations
Chuck Meacham, Deputy Commissioner
Alaska Department of Fish & Game
1255 W. 8th Street
Juneau, AK 99801
Phone: 465-4100
Position Statement: Advised Snake River fall chinook are
still listed as endangered yet their
numbers have increased significantly;
spoke in favor of a Yukon River Salmon
Treaty with the Canadians
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 93-15, SIDE A
Number 000
CHAIRMAN CARL MOSES called the meeting to order 9:07 a.m.
He noted Representative James in attendance and stated the
committee would take testimony regarding federal fisheries
issues.
Number 045
CARL ROSIER, COMMISSIONER, ALASKA DEPARTMENT OF FISH & GAME
(ADF&G), introduced other members of the department. He
stated the next 18-24 months is the time for re-
authorization of the Magnuson Act, the Endangered Species
Act and others. He advised that John Gisberg, Assistant
Attorney General, has been assigned to the ADF&G to provide
on-site legal services during the negotiation of the Yukon
Salmon Treaty as well as participate in the Pacific Salmon
Commission meetings, and knows the Endangered Species Act.
The ADF&G's focus is the re-authorization of the Magnuson
Fisheries Conservation & Management Act, the Endangered
Species Act and the Marine Mammals Protection Act, he
noted.
MR. ROSIER also noted the ADF&G may need minor legal
services and a lobbyist to ensure Alaska's views get
conveyed in Washington D.C. He then noted the ADF&G needs
more public involvement such as advisory groups to deal with
a lack of funding for the department.
Number 252
RON SOMERVILLE, SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE COMMISSIONER,
ADF&G, advised that there are other problems the ADF&G is
facing, besides the re-authorization of the Endangered
Species Act (ESA), the Magnuson Act (MA), and the Marine
Mammals Protection Act (MMPA). The listing of harbor seals
on the Endangered Species List, for example, is of great
interest to commercial and sport fishermen, hunters, and
people in the timber industry. The economics of Alaska are
intricately tied to the re-authorizations of the above
listed acts, he said.
Number 300
MR. SOMERVILLE stated the ADF&G is paying more attention to
the subject of bio-diversity as President Clinton will
probably sign the bio-diversity treaty. In terms of habitat
protection, the treaty is an advantage, but dangerous for
Alaska in terms of jurisdictional issues if the federal
government seeks to enforce the bio-diversity aspects of the
treaty without participation by the state, he noted.
CHAIRMAN MOSES asked that Mr. Rosier and Mr. Somerville
remain seated while taking testimony from Rod Moore in
Washington D.C.
Number 373
ROD MOORE, LEGISLATIVE AIDE FOR CONGRESSMAN DON YOUNG,
testifying via teleconference from Washington D.C., advised
that the Alaskan delegation will be seeking participation
from Alaskans when dealing with the ESA, MMPA and MA re-
authorizations. In 1992, Congressman Young introduced a
bill to allow commercial fishing in Glacier Bay, he
informed. Senator Murkowski introduced similar legislation
in the Senate and adjournment took place before action was
taken. Both bills have been introduced again this year and
have been jointly referred to the subcommittee on natural
resources, he disclosed.
Number 417
MR. MOORE said the bill this year does not involve cruise
ships; the park service is putting out a vessel management
plan for cruise ships in Glacier Bay and, therefore, the
issue was not addressed in Congressman Young's bill.
Number 427
MR. MOORE, moving on to the ESA, mentioned that a bill had
been introduced by Mr. Tozan of Louisiana, and co-signed by
Congressman Young and other members that will make several
changes to the ESA. This bill should resolve several
problems with the ESA in terms of recognizing human needs.
There is no intent to destroy the ESA; however, the Act, as
presently implemented, is much stricter than the authors had
intended it to be back in 1972. He then assured that the
environmental community is supporting the bill.
MR. MOORE, with regard to the MMPA, noted the most
important, and time-sensitive issue is the fisheries
exemption. The date of this exemption is September 30,
1993. If the fisheries exemption is not extended, modified,
or continued by that date, the existing exemption process
will lapse and fishermen will fall back under the original
MMPA, which may cause local fisheries many problems.
MR. MOORE concluded by saying that field hearings in Alaska
for Congressman Young's bill may be limited due to a small
travel budget. If the committee's travel budget does not
allow, then hearings will be scheduled in Washington D.C.,
and testimonials from Alaska will be invited. Topics will
include Coast guard issues and the buy-back of Bristol Bay
oil leases.
Number 593
MR. MOORE stated since the last re-authorization period, the
removal of the Alaskan majority on the North Pacific
Fisheries Management Council (NPFMC) has been a major
concern. He claimed this would not be an issue before the
subcommittee this year. Many other states are concerned
about the make-up of the NPFMC and the number of sport-
fishermen, commercial fishermen and environmentalists on the
NPFMC. Congress established the NPFMC to allow fishermen
and processors to participate in the management of our
fisheries. If a very strict conflict-of-interest rule is
applied to the NPFMC's membership and actions, the ability
of fishermen and processors to participate will be taken
away from the people who know the industry best, and
fisheries' management will be left in the hands of those who
do not know the industry very well, he declared.
Number 629
REPRESENTATIVE CLIFF DAVIDSON asked what the modifications
would be to the ESA, as well as the long-term result.
MR. MOORE apologized for not knowing those modifications
that Mr. Tozan had introduced, and stated the general
concern is that once a species has been listed and measures
taken to protect it, fish harvests or timber harvests should
not be halted in the process. Another concern is the
listing of sub-species and sub-populations, versus species
as a whole. After the legislation gets printed, copies will
be provided, he added.
DAVID BENTON, DIRECTOR, EXTERNAL AND INTERNATIONAL FISHERIES
AFFAIRS, ADF&G, advised that the NPFMC's make-up,
specifically the Alaskan majority, should still concern the
state. He stated the issues mentioned by Mr. Moore: The
NPFMC membership, the role played by the NPFMC, and
conflicts of interest on the NPFMC are all critically
important to the state. Another problem that has been
voiced is the inability of the NPFMC'S system to conserve
and manage fish stocks in eastern states, he added.
TAPE 93-15, SIDE B
Number 000
MR. BENTON claimed that in the North Pacific, the NPFMC has
been very conservation-oriented, and has been in the
forefront of putting the first comprehensive observer
program on national fisheries, prohibiting roe stripping,
locking down fisheries that are being over-fished due to
foreign fleets, and a number of other issues. Lastly, the
fishery fee and tax system is an issue. Currently, there is
no federal tax or fees on fish harvested; the National
Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) is pushing for fees to
provide funds for fisheries management, he disclosed. If
there is going to be a fee system, the state would like to
see fees collected from a fishery in a particular region be
devoted back to fisheries management in that region, he
concluded.
Number 122
MR. ROSIER commented that in the issue paper provided the
committee, members should look at the section called "other
provisions", which is an accumulation of ideas dealing with
state controlled fisheries. (A copy of the issue paper may
be found in the House Special Committee on Fisheries Room,
and after the adjournment of the second session of the 18th
Alaska State Legislature, in the Legislative Reference
Library.)
Number 142
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIDSON asked what the effect of a
moratorium would be on the Individual Fishing Quota (IFQ)
system. He said with some major changes being discussed to
the Magnuson Act's re-authorization, the IFQ system should
be brought up later in the re-authorization debate. He
further asked if independent sociological studies would
continue on the impact on industry and coastal communities.
MR. BENTON said there was an IFQ moratorium in effect on the
sablefish and halibut program that was established by
Senator Ted Stevens. The NPFMC will not, however, be moving
forward quickly to implement a sablefish/halibut IFQ
program, which will allow Congress to look into the IFQ
program further, he informed. Lastly, he said he was not
aware of any further ongoing analyses arising from the IFQ
program.
Number 256
RICK LAUBER, CHAIRMAN, NPFMC and LOBBYIST for PACIFIC
SEAFOOD PROCESSORS ASSOCIATION, noted the MA created the
NPFMC in 1976. He said foreign fishermen had been over-
fishing Alaskan waters and the NPFMC provided for some means
to deal with this problem. In the mid 1980's, the first
significant American production largely through factory
ships operating out of Seattle was seen, he added. He hoped
to be successful in defending the NPFMC's system, because if
the management of fisheries reverts back to the system used
before statehood, which was federal management, then the
system will be in a world of hurt, he believed.
Number 397
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIDSON asked to what extent the factory
trawler and over-capitalization problem in the industry is
related to the liberal use of the re-flagging issue.
MR. LAUBER stated the abuse and re-flagging of Alaskan
vessels by foreign countries is tremendous. He recounted a
local boat, the Acona, was drug off to Norway, cut up, the
name and number was salvaged off the keel and a $40 Million
factory ship was built, which displayed an American flag. If
the judge's decision had been upheld regarding foreign
bottoms and foreign ownership, the factory trawler fleet off
the coast of Alaska would have been reduced by half, he
declared. A significant part of the over-capitalization was
from re-flagging or foreign bottoms that were given
exemptions, he added.
CHAIRMAN MOSES advised that discussion would move on to
Glacier Bay fishing.
Number 455
BOB LOESCHER, EXECUTIVE VICE-PRESIDENT, SEALASKA
CORPORATION, stated he had been working with the commercial
fishermen's groups and the native people of Hoonah to deal
with the Glacier Bay issue for the last few years. The area
totals about 900 square miles and has been a traditional
fishing ground for Natives of Elfin Cove, Hoonah, and
Yakutat for over 100 years. The bay has been the
subsistence area for the Hoonah Tlingits. He added there
was a lawsuit filed by the Alaska Wildlife Alliance and
American Wildlands versus Marvin Jensen, the Director of the
National Park Service.
MR. LOESCHER continued, saying the lawsuit challenged the
commercial fisheries, subsistence, tour boats and other
commercial activities in Glacier Bay. Additionally, he
advised that Governor Hickel filed a lawsuit against the
U.S. over the state waters' issue. The National Park
Service (NPS) claims all of the waters under their
jurisdiction and control and they applied the concept of
wilderness waters within various parts of Glacier Bay, which
limits commercial fishing as well as subsistence.
MR. LOESCHER said, "The NPS is saying that commercial
fisheries is prohibited by a matter of law in their
regulations and they have already obligated laws against
subsistence by the Hoonah people or any people, under Title
eight of ANILCA (Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation
Act), they do not recognize that in that they have said
there is no subsistence activities allowed. This severely
challenges the state of Alaska's rights under the Statehood
Act, because the state of Alaska has the right of all
waters, inland waters of the state, including three miles
offshore. It also challenges the very fabric of our
commercial fisheries laws, the limited entry laws, the right
of the state to manage its fish resources, our conservation
laws, environmental laws, and all of that is severely
challenged by the NPS activities right now."
MR. LOESCHER mentioned the environmental community could
have an injunction against the fisheries, making the
commercial and subsistence Native fishermen of Alaska,
criminals. There was a bill introduced in Congress last
year (1992) that was held up in the last hours by members of
the Sierra Club and other environmentalist groups that are
the principal opponents of Sealaska, he alleged. These
groups feel Glacier Bay is a pristine area and should not be
used for commercial purposes, including tour vessels, he
added.
Number 570
DALE KELLEY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ALASKA TROLLERS
ASSOCIATION, COORDINATOR FOR THE ALLIED FISHERMEN OF
SOUTHEAST ALASKA (AFSA), and MEMBER OF THE UNITED FISHERMEN
OF ALASKA, said the 1990 suit filed by the Alaska Wildlife
Alliance against the NPS documented commercial fishing was
illegal in Glacier Bay National Park (GBNP) under ANILCA.
In 1990, in response, the NPS proposed regulations that
would terminate subsistence fishing immediately and
terminate commercial fishing by 1997. Also in 1990, in
response to these two actions, the Allied Fishermen of
Southeast Alaska was formed to preserve fishing and the
historic access rights to GBNP.
MS. KELLEY noted the first task of AFSA was to intervene in
a lawsuit, fight the regulations and seek statutory relief
in Congress to fix the Glacier Bay issue. There should also
be some review of the wilderness waters; there are a handful
of crab fishermen in Gustavus who should be grandfathered
into any regulations to phase them out slowly, in order to
accommodate them, she said. In 1992, AFSA worked with the
delegation and drafted much of the finding language in
Congressman Young's bill. Alaskan fishermen need updated
fish surveys and studies done, and that goes back to the
budget cuts that the entire state is feeling, she concluded.
Number 690
JOHN SISK, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, SOUTHEAST ALASKA CONSERVATION
COUNCIL (SEACC), said the 1980 revised boundary of Glacier
Bay when it was made into a national park includes Icy
Strait and Cross Sound. Those waters are very important to
commercial fishing, he added.
TAPE 93-16, SIDE A
Number 000
MR. SISK continued, saying the SEACC is Alaska's home-spun
environmental group, composed of 15 local volunteer groups,
that has been around for 22 years. Its primary focus is on
management and protection of fish and wildlife habitat on
federal and state lands in the panhandle. The SEACC works
with local commercial fishermen and, therefore, looks
differently at the Glacier Bay area than most national
environmental groups. Commercial fishing is a renewable,
cornerstone resource in the panhandle and has to be
protected and secure in the future, he noted.
MR. SISK advised that SEACC's board of directors took a
formal position on four issues: support of customary and
traditional subsistence fishing in the waters of GBNP by the
villages of Hoonah and Yakutat; support of commercial
fishing and sport fishing on the outer coast of GBNP and in
all Icy Strait waters consistent with the maintenance of
park values; the strong belief that motorless marine
wilderness waters must be maintained and protected in GBNP;
and, the belief that there should be no increases in the
number of large cruise ship entries into Glacier Bay proper.
Number 151
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIDSON asked if there had been any success
with SEACC sitting down with members of the Sierra Club and
pounding out some of the differences with the local
situation.
Number 156
MR. SISK advised that the national environmental groups do
not have consensus on this issue. There is a process of
review in the Sierra Club now, and most groups are working
internally to get a game plan for this year, he added.
Number 180
CHAIRMAN MOSES advised the committee that conversation would
move on to the Marine Mammal Protection Act and the first
testimony would be from Washington D.C.
Number 191
SUZANNE LUDICELLO, REPRESENTING THE CENTER FOR MARINE
CONSERVATION, testifying via teleconference from Washington
D.C., said she would discuss the issues facing national
environmental groups. The only way the MMPA moratorium on
taking can be waived is to prove the marine mammal
population is at its optimum sustainable population. In the
spring of 1987, local groups of fishermen, environmentalists
and other parties met and came up with a compromise that was
designed to allow fishing to continue for five years while
the agency and industry gathered information about fishing
operations and marine mammals. This agreement was
translated by Congress into section 114 of the MMPA, known
as the interim exemption or the "fish fix". That section of
the act will expire at the end of September, 1993, and it
will be important to have a new proposal for Congress before
the old one expires. Another issue that may be important is
co-management of marine mammals between tribes and the
federal government, she concluded.
Number 382
LARRY MERCULIEFF, VICE CHAIR OF THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLES
COUNCIL ON MARINE MAMMALS (IPC), testifying via
teleconference from St. Paul Island, advised members that
the IPC is comprised of representatives from user groups
from the Arctic to Southeast Alaska for the coordination of
actions and activities, and the exchange of information.
The first priority of the IPC is to maintain existing Native
exemptions pursuant to section 101B of the MMPA which allows
Alaskan Natives to take marine mammals for subsistence
purposes and for the production of handicrafts. The user
groups do not intend to propose any amendments to the MMPA
unless other interest groups propose amendments that are
adverse to Native interests and receive favorable
consideration in Congress, he alleged.
MR. MERCULIEFF stated the position paper that the state has
is incorrect. The IPC is on record as unanimously opposing
amendments apparently being proposed by the United States
Fish and Wildlife Service (USF&W). The IPC also opposes any
amendments which seek to further regulate Native subsistence
use of marine mammals beyond what already exists or which
seek to diminish the priority status of subsistence users
more than what already exists. The IPC supports increased
cooperative multinational research management; increased
funding for research; and, meaningful involvement of
indigenous people in research management, he concluded.
Number 488
CHARLIE JOHNSON, ACTING EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ESKIMO
WALRUS COMMISSION (EWC), testified via teleconference from
Nome. He stated the EWC's first priority is the Native
exemption of the re-authorization of the MMPA. The EWC will
not offer amendments unless there are others contrary to the
mission of the EWC or if their amendments are acceptable to
all parties involved. The EWC is primarily concerned with
walrus. The position taken by the IPC is the same as that
of the EWC and the EWC supports that position, he informed.
Number 517
BETH STEWART, DIRECTOR OF THE NATURAL RESOURCES DEPARTMENT
FOR THE ALEUTIANS EAST BOROUGH stated that in 1988, when the
fisheries exemption was granted, the Aleutians East Borough
(AEB) realized the problems with the stellar sea lions. The
severe decline of stellar sea lions occurs around Kodiak and
Sand Point, False Pass, Nelson Lagoon and King Cove. She
advised that the people in the region carried marine mammal
observers on their vessels for one year, after which they
were de-classified to a lower category because the
observations indicated that fisheries interactions with
stellar sea lions were not the problem.
MS. STEWART said the AEB has been working to develop
scientific information for stellar sea lions and other sea
mammals. Once a mammal reaches the numbers that the
stellar's have, the government is required to take
conservation measures, even if the measures are not sure to
have a positive impact on the species of concern. There are
areas in the AEB which are no-transit zones and will only
allow a boat into the area if it is in danger of sinking.
There are also no-troll zones further along the western
Aleutians that have displaced many vessels that used to fish
there, and so far there is no indication that those measures
have done any good to stabilize the population. Harbour
seal declines are now a concern also, she added, and bio-
diversity is going to be an important issue, especially if
it threatens people by not allowing fishing.
Number 606
CHAIRMAN MOSES asked if there were questions, hearing none,
testimony moved on to the Endangered Species Act (ESA).
Number 612
ERIC JORGENSON, MANAGING ATTORNEY FOR THE SIERRA CLUB LEGAL
DEFENSE FUND IN JUNEAU, stated the ESA was one of the
nation's earliest and most effective environmental laws and
has had broad support in Congress and with the American
people. The Act was enacted in 1973 and has been improved
over the years. The process begins by listing a species as
threatened or endangered by the USF&WS or the NMFS. That
listing triggers a variety of protection, including the
research of critical habitats, obligation of federal
agencies to consult with the USF&WS before taking actions,
prohibition of taking, and development of a recovery plan
for the species to get the species off the list.
Number 670
MR. JORGENSON concluded that the Act has assisted many
species including the bald eagle, brown pelican, alligator,
whooping crane, and on and on. There are conflicts between
the ESA and development of projects, but they are rare.
There are 700 species on the endangered species' list and
there are thousands of federal projects each year, he added.
TAPE 93-16, SIDE B
Number 000
MR. JORGENSON advised that Alaskans are seeing impacts from
activities that take place outside Alaska. He then offered
to answer questions.
Number 020
RON SOMERVILLE, SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE COMMISSIONER,
ADF&G, advised that the ESA has possible built-in train-
wrecks because of the interpretation by the courts and the
litigation efforts by Greenpeace. The ESA involves more
than just salmon, but is a way to protect ecosystems; the
problem is that the ESA was designed to protect species and
is not properly structured to protect ecosystems. The ESA
has two parts: The endangered species, and the threatened
species. The de-listing process has become bogged-down and
now it is almost impossible to get a species off the list.
Australian kangaroos, for example have exceeded populations
of three million animals, yet they remain on the list and no
foreign importing is allowed, which restricts international
trade.
MR. SOMERVILLE alleged there will probably be a move to
place the Snake River chinook salmon on the list which will
cause strict international trade restrictions on chinook
salmon from the Columbia River system. The standards for
listing, the definition of species, not stocks, and the role
of the state are the three priority areas of the ADF&G in
regards to the ESA, he concluded.
Number 321
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIDSON asked what direction or priorities
Mr. Somerville would be taking back to Washington D.C. in
argument to the new administration.
MR. SOMERVILLE responded that the state will not advocate to
do away with the ESA, but noted the ESA is poorly equipped
to deal with problems regarding ecosystems and populations.
Maybe the bio-diversity issue should be implemented through
legislation to deal with ecosystems, whereas the ESA deals
with species, he suggested.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIDSON asked how Mr. Somerville would
propose to deal with insufficient information regarding
listing proposals.
Number 325
CHAIRMAN MOSES advised Representative Davidson that for the
sake of time, questions would be reserved for another time.
Number 328
KATE TROLL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR FOR THE SOUTHEAST ALASKA
SEINERS ASSOCIATION, advised that commercial fishing groups
need to work together with moderate environmental groups.
These groups need to try to find a consensus between
balancing the needs of the ecosystem, the species, and the
economy. The definition of species or sub-species needs to
be analyzed, she believed, and noted the act is now being
applied to very isolated populations. She did not think it
was Congress' intent to apply the ESA to these populations.
Commercial fishing groups would like to see the Act get
directed back toward species, and not isolated populations,
where it takes 45 steps to differentiate one fish from
another.
MS. TROLL stated secondly, the primary responsibility should
be directed to the primary threat to the species. There
needs to be better determination of the listing criteria and
listing needs to be based on the biological sciences.
Economics cannot be part of the listing process or the re-
authorization of the act will get nowhere, she concluded.
Number 434
CHAIRMAN MOSES thanked Ms. Troll and said that testimony
would move on to the Pacific Salmon Treaty.
Number 438
CHUCK MEACHAM, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER, ADF&G, said that in the
summer of 1992, Snake River fall chinook salmon were listed
as threatened under the ESA. He pointed out Sections ten
and seven of the ESA allow fishermen to obtain an incidental
take permit. The ADF&G is working with the NMFS on the
biological assessment which gathers the effects of the
fisheries on the listed species, and the ADF&G is trying to
set up a meeting with the Canadians to work together on the
entire coast-wide chinook problem, the Frazier Annex and the
Southern chum annex problem, he concluded.
CHAIRMAN MOSES thanked Mr. Meacham and invited Ms. Kelley to
speak once again.
Number 569
MS. KELLEY advised that the biggest misunderstanding about
the treaty between the U.S. and Canada is that the issues do
not always center on Alaska or Canada. She alleged most of
the fish captured in Alaskan waters come from Canada or the
Lower 48 states, and the Pacific Salmon Treaty has been
successful in rebuilding chinook stocks. She surmised the
general summer season has gone from 168 days to four and a
half days because stocks are so abundant. The Snake River
chinook issue has been taken to the extreme, she said, and
asked what would happen if one or two of the Snake River
fall chinook salmon got into the fishery.
MS. KELLEY wondered if the fishery would be shut down. She
deemed this type of disruption would put some trollers out
of business. Currently, the Alaska Trollers Association has
2,500 permit holders, 1,600 of which are active. She
advised that any assistance in Washington D.C. would be very
important to help with the fisheries.
Number 676
CHAIRMAN MOSES thanked Ms. Kelley and invited Ms. Troll to
testify once again.
Number 681
MS. TROLL, speaking also about the Pacific Salmon Treaty,
claimed that if trollers are vulnerable because of the ESA,
then every fishery in the state of Alaska is in danger. The
entire state has to be strong and support the trollers,
because if the trollers lose, everyone will lose. she said.
The intensity and political fallout has been incredible;
and, Washington State and Alaska continue to argue on issues
while Canada sits back and catches Alaska's fish, she
declared.
TAPE 93-17, SIDE A
Number 000
MS. TROLL continued, "Washington residents should visit
Washington D.C. and talk to constituents; and if they want
to take on Alaska and its fishery issues, then they will
hurt their own economic base." She noted there has been a
division or split between Washington and Alaska due to
political parties. She noted further that Washington has a
democratic Governor and Alaska has Ted Stevens in the Senate
and Washington is "tired of being strong-armed by Alaskans."
ADJOURNMENT
Number 059
CHAIRMAN MOSES thanked everyone who testified, and asked if
there were further comments from the audience. Hearing
none, he adjourned the meeting at 12:22 p.m.
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